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Post by Taskona on Jan 8, 2014 2:27:08 GMT
As I look at what I transcribed from my 410/33 recording, I am starting to understand the layout a bit better even though it has been explained to me. Still have three questions: 1) what does the xxx/yy mean (for clarification and so no one has to repeat themselves yet again) 2) why did she repeat the 33 groups twice the first time, then repeat them all again only once? I have asked this before and I can see doing this to make sure the receiver understands it.
3) as far as any number message goes, is there any way to decode any part of it, and/or could some of them be other radio frequencies?
Thanks for any help, still learning.
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Post by zabastov on Jan 8, 2014 2:50:05 GMT
Each station has a slightly different format, and might use different portions of its transmission for different things. When you ask these questions it might help if you include the station ID (if you know it) and the time (GMT / UTC), date, and frequency heard. The time, date, and frequency can help others to ID the station if you do not know what station it is.
1 For many stations the XXX / YY (can be YYY) is the recipient ID and the group count. So who the message is for and how many groups will be sent.
2 That particular station repeats each number group twice the first time sent, and then repeats the whole thing one time. Not all stations do this. But think about it from the point of the person receiving. Hearing each group twice is a good way to make sure you hear the numbers correctly, particularly if the conditions are not great. Then the single repeat of the whole thing gives you a chance to catch any mistakes you made while trying to write it all down.
3 Is there any way to decode any part of the numbers transmission? If they do their job right then the answer is no, there is nothing in the message body that tells you anything useful. The "callup" for certain stations can tell you what frequency will be sent next, but nothing in the message body can be used.
Are you familiar with the ENIGMA Control List (ECL)? It is the master list of station ID's and descriptions. Some of the descriptions are incomplete and must be augmented with ENIGMA Newsletters to get all the details, but the basics are there in the ECL.
Z!
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Post by Taskona on Jan 8, 2014 3:09:57 GMT
I am not familiar with the ECL. For the one message I'm talking about was E11a, 5082 Khz, 0450GMT, 01/06/14. What is the "call-up" exactly? Thank you for your help.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2014 3:52:55 GMT
I am not familiar with the ECL. For the one message I'm talking about was E11a, 5082 Khz, 0450GMT, 01/06/14. What is the "call-up" exactly? Thank you for your help. The call up is the call number and/or the group count repeated for several minutes before the message begins. It's to give the recipient time to find and fine tune the transmission for them to transcribe the message. For example the call ups for E11/G11/S11a are: XXX/YY For most other stations in Europe (S06s/E07/E07a/E17z/E06/G06/Etc etc) the call number is the only thing repeated. When it starts the message it begins with another 3 digit number (I've heard so many definitions for this) and the group count before the message. Example: An S06s message from yesterday 352 (Call #) 917 (I've been told is is either another ID, what number the message is, or the One Time Pad page) 6 (Group count) Message 917 and 6 are repeated 00000 (Which means the transmission is over)
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Post by numberstationsgal on Jan 9, 2014 1:12:22 GMT
Russians tend to end their message with nulls. G11 and G06 both use "Ende" and E11 uses "Out"
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Post by zabastov on Jan 9, 2014 16:18:24 GMT
Let’s get a couple of things straight about numbers stations in general. A lot of things presented as “fact” are guess work. True, it may be well founded guess work, it may be correct, but it is still a guess and most of the times can never be confirmed. In the past things that have been accepted as “correct”, with multiple examples to support the conclusion, have later turned out to be incorrect. That is not a slam on anyone or any organization attempting to explain what is going on, it is just the nature of the beast. The people who actually know what exactly each part of a specific numbers transmission might be are expected not to divulge those facts. My best advice is to take anything presented as fact about numbers stations as “probably” or “possibly” so, even “almost certainly” so, but generally not known/proven/confirmed fact. So terms like “call numbers”, “recipient ID”, and such are mostly just best guess, and might not be those things at all.
There are many different types and formats of numbers stations, so what applies to one may not apply to others. Some numbers stations fall in “families”, stations that might use different languages or modes but follow the same basic rules.
For example the E07, and the family it belongs to (includes E07, G07, S07, V07, M12), typically transmit at XX00, XX20, and XX40, meaning at the top of the hour (example 1800 UTC), 20 minutes after the top of the hour (example 1820 UTC), and 40 minutes after the top of the hour (example 1840 UTC). It might also be on a XX10, XX30, XX50 schedule.
This family also normally has a “callup” for the first several minutes of a transmission. This callup is numbers in the format of XXX XXX XXX Y or YYY and last for at least 2 minutes. A variation in this family will throw in a single 5f group here. Another version will send the Y or YYY twice.
The XXX and Y or YYY have a meaning. The Y or YYY will be either 1 or 0 or 000, 1 means there will be a message (2 means 2 messages, 3 means 3, etc), 0 or 000 means there will not be a message (a “null” message). The XXX (let’s use 172, a callup used by E07 in the 1800 hour on Jan 05 2014) indicates the 100 kHz digit of the frequency being used for each time period. 1 and 7 and 2. So that at 1800 UTC (in our example time) the frequency will be Z_1_ZZ kHz, at 1820 it will be A_7_AA kHz, and at 1840 it will be B_2_BB kHz. If it is a null message (000 in the Y space) there will be no XX40 transmission.
Taking that one step further, the family typically uses the same 10’s and 1’s kHz digit for all three transmission, so if the 1800 UTC transmission was on Z194 kHz, then the 1820 will be on A794 kHz and the 1840 transmission will be on B294 kHz. Further, depending on time of day and the specific slot used they either increment up or down.
So if the first transmission using a 172 callup at 1800 UTC is on 8194 kHz then the second transmission at 1820 will be 1 or 2 MHz lower, use a 7 in the 100’s digit, and end in 94 kHz. So it should be either 7794 or 6794 kHz (it was 6794 kHz in the 05 Jan example chosen). And the next transmission, at 1840 kHz, should be 1 or 2 MHz lower and use 2 in the 100’s digit, with 94 as the last two digits, so the frequency should be 5294 or 4294 kHz (it was 5294 kHz in the example chosen). The Jan 05, 2014, 1800 UTC time period E07 using a callup of 172 was on 8194 kHz at 1800, 6794 kHz at 1820, and 5294 kHz at 1840. Basically it means that once you have a single time slots frequency and callup you can narrow it down to no more than 4 possible frequencies for each of the other time slots, even if you only find the last time slot. Makes finding unknown schedules easy once you have found one of them.
Following the callup number this family then sends another “set” of numbers, in the format SSS TT. The SSS might be the recipient ID, it might be the code index, it could be any one of several things (my personal bet is the SSS is something to do with the coding, maybe a reference to the code page/setting used). The TT is the number of code groups sent.
The code groups are then sent and the message ends in 000 000.
The above example is what I meant when I said the callup of certain stations can tell you what frequency will be or has been used.
Z!
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